Ferrari F430 Spider (NURBS)

[Snecx]

Hello everyone. I started this WIP back in Dec 12, 2006 (about a week ago). Currently I'm actively working on this WIP and will try to finish it in a month, with full-time dedication to this project.

Huge amount of work has went into this project but much of the progress are posted on another forum. I'm lazy to summarize all the changes so here are some latest progress.

Modelling in Rhino, trying my best to get Class A surfacing quality. This might not mean much to you if you're not into NURBS, so I apologize for the lack of eye-candy at this early stage.

[dbkenn]

cg-cars, whats the point of the b&w pattern

[Snecx]

Zebra check is for you to see surface continuity and flow. Basically it is just reflection of zebra stripes environment.

If the reflection isn't right, you can say that the surface isn't right (or isn't smooth). It is important in surfacing that the surfaces have proper flow and continuity so when they (the surfaces) are created in real life, they will be smooth even when touched.

We have to rely on these different surface analysis methods such as zebra stripes, environment mapping and curvature analysis to study the quality of the surfaces.

That's because just by "looking good" in the monitor is not enough.

[dbkenn]

wow, tanks for the knowledge

[Snecx]

@dbkenn: Np.

Some progress. Still single span and some degree 7 surfaces. One more trim and I can proceed with the A pillar.

[clix101]

sweet work looks great

[Snecx]

A pillar joint isn't right yet.

[jhancock]

I applaud the nurbs work. I've been working with max and maya nurbs to solve a surface problem on an ambulance I am modeling for a corporate video. It just never looked right using poly's, there were too many vertices to mess with so I went to nurbs.

Anyway, I hear Rhino is pretty good with nurbs but not CATIA quality. So if you want true automotive class A surfacing, you are going to have to pay about 100k for software. But CATIA has very basic rendering, so there's the rub. If you look back for my Enzo pine wood derby car, that was done with Catia.

Here's a view of my fenders that have been converted to nurbs. They are looking better and I can get here very quickly, more so than with poly.

The basic process for the door, for instance, is to make a nurbs plane with minimal CV's, move the CV's to match the basic door curve, and then make CV curves on surface for the door outline. This results in very nice edge curves. Convert them to matching CV number. I then use either uv loft or 2 rail to make the basic door panel. The leading edge is cut at the top where it is straight, to give the 2 rail or uv loft "squareness". I project the window edge trim onto this surface and trim the surface.

The edges are tough. I use the curves to project back into the body and then fillet or blend the edges. Some fillets just won't take in max, but catia will do a tri-tangent round edge all around the door and down the side edges.

I can't get Maya to close seams perfectly for nothing. My skill level is beginner/intermediate in Maya.

So, if you look closely in the cutout for the turn signal, you can see a little of the poorly placed stripe (I need to mess with the stripe) but what I can't figure out in max, is if the shader can find that little bit of surface left over from the trim, why doesn't the modeler software take it out as it should???

Anyway, good job on the 430. I love the sound of their new stock exhaust. My 355F1 had the old two stage and needed a tubi.

[jhancock]

One other point: on the real car, they use Catia to model the surfaces. You can go on the COE forum for Catia and exchange messages with the Ferrari team including the F1 guys.

When they build the car, they most likely take the body panels and weld them at the pillar joint and then grind and smooth them down until they look good. On my Ford ambulance, they put a seam there.

What you might want to try is projecting a number cross section curves onto the body from the nose all the way along the top of the fender (you have that part looking great) and continue up the pillar. Once you have the cross sections, you can do the Rhino equiv. of UV loft or 2 rail to see if it will smooth all along that path.

[Snecx]

@jhancock:
Thanks for the input. IMHO, Rhino can do Class A surfaces, I really don't see why I really need CATIA if I just want Class A surfaces with NURBS.

Perhaps you can shed me some light on this? I am really interested in knowing why Rhino's NURBS is not CATIA quality? The thing is that I manually create the surfaces instead of relying on loft/sweep/etc. I am doing manual modelling with Rhino, so what I am dealing with is NURBS and I don't see how NURBS implementation in Rhino is less accurate than others. I work under low tolerances and I create single span surfaces for much of the main body area.

I have figured out the way they did it in their car at the A pillar so I'll post some updates later. Loft or sweep 2 rail in Rhino is gonna produce multispan surfaces, something that I wouldn't want to have. In Rhino it is easy to come out with quick-models, but most of the tools aren't suitable for producing high-quality surfaces. Perhaps this is why most people think Rhino is not capable of producing real Class A surfaces.

Does it make my model Class A if I export the NURBS surfaces (which are basically square surfaces with 4 edges) into CATIA/StudioTools? Just that I don't really see how they can be at higher quality if it is in other packages. I do know that other packages have more robust tools for high-quality surfacing, Rhino is just a bit different and much easier to use.

I'll definitely check out their COE forum and see if I can get in touch with their people. At the moment I am not really sure on how I can actually join their forum. Hmm.. I think I need to pay annual subscription fees.

p.s. I render with 3dsmax so Rhino is just used for surfacing.

[ColdFlame]

wow it is really very nice .looks promisin keep it up !

[Xoliul]

I applaud your attention to detail and perfection, this model will realy turn out perfectly accurate if you keep it up!

And uh, jhancock, did I read that right, you own(ed) an F355? If so, there is still hope for my dream of once owning one making a living with CG

[Snecx]

Thanks all. Here are some progress after painless long hours that not many will ever notice.

NURBS surfaces are mostly single span and some up to degree 9. These are high quality NURBS surfaces. I tried my best to ensure that the curvature flow is correct and smooth.

Currently working on the windscreen area and the A pillar joint near the hood. It will take quite some time before I can get smooth and accurate results.

Main surfaces are hard but once I get them done the filleting and detailing part will be much easier and more enjoyable.

The A pillar is just a mock-up at the moment.

[Erik_S]

It looks really great, but i still don't really understand the zebra thingy... but looks smooth anyway

[shinranryul]

Looks pretty good man, looking really smooth. What reflection map are you using to get the the nice white lined reflections in the first 4 pics of your last post. Or is that a shader?

[Snecx]

@shinranryul: The environment map is as attached, I made it for analysis.

[jhancock]

And uh, jhancock, did I read that right, you own(ed) an F355? If so, there is still hope for my dream of once owning one making a living with CG [/quote]

as far as CG goes, who knows? I hear from a consultant friend that people are paying a lot for corporate videos, training, etc. I'm not in that business so I really don't know. This is a project for my company's product presentations.

yes, owned a '99 355f1 spyder for three years and I remember telling some kids once to "stay off drugs and alcohol, study hard, work hard, and you'll have one faster than I did".

[jhancock]

Snecx, CAtia paramaterizes the base surfaces and curves no differently than Rhino. They remain curves with surfaces stretched, railed, swept, etc. Catia has about 30 options for sweeping a curve, equal for lofting. There is also a feature called "turbofit" that is killer for fitting surfaces on splines. You can set the tangent, pulling direction, tension, etc for each curve. Also, the dress-up tools for filleting, corner rounding, etc, have many options that allow for nice corners and transitions. I just downloaded the Rhino eval to compare it to max and maya, which both have very poor nurbs and you have to struggle to get them to do acurate alignments (as in CAD for CAM).

Having a mathematical surface (vs smooth'd ploys) allows you to acurately machine the surface, repreatable to .0001 or greater, something you can't do with an arbitrary poly smoothing algorithm. I've tried importing nurbs through IGES into Catia and they come in as meshes, so in order to get a smooth surface, you have to recreate them. BIG pain.

Yes, check out the Catia operators exchange, COE on the web, but the Ferrari guys don't share, at least the F1 designers. ( do you know they spend over $500M each year on F1 racing, about 76M on wind tunnerl alone?) I tried to get some basic surfaces for the Enzo when I was machining the "enzo pine wood derby car" and no-go.

[Silent][Moebius]

wow those zebra renders are off the hook... i think i'm going blind

sweet NURBS work, it never ceases to amaze me what you cando with 'em

[Snecx]

Originally Posted by jhancock

Snecx, CAtia paramaterizes the base surfaces and curves no differently than Rhino. They remain curves with surfaces stretched, railed, swept, etc. Catia has about 30 options for sweeping a curve, equal for lofting. There is also a feature called "turbofit" that is killer for fitting surfaces on splines. You can set the tangent, pulling direction, tension, etc for each curve. Also, the dress-up tools for filleting, corner rounding, etc, have many options that allow for nice corners and transitions. I just downloaded the Rhino eval to compare it to max and maya, which both have very poor nurbs and you have to struggle to get them to do acurate alignments (as in CAD for CAM).

Having a mathematical surface (vs smooth'd ploys) allows you to acurately machine the surface, repreatable to .0001 or greater, something you can't do with an arbitrary poly smoothing algorithm. I've tried importing nurbs through IGES into Catia and they come in as meshes, so in order to get a smooth surface, you have to recreate them. BIG pain.

Yes, check out the Catia operators exchange, COE on the web, but the Ferrari guys don't share, at least the F1 designers. ( do you know they spend over $500M each year on F1 racing, about 76M on wind tunnerl alone?) I tried to get some basic surfaces for the Enzo when I was machining the "enzo pine wood derby car" and no-go.

Seriously Max and Maya cannot compare to what Rhino can do. Rhino is fully based on NURBS. Max and Maya is meant for entertainment industry so they create things that looks good on the screen only.

Yes while CATIA has more tools, it doesn't really mean Rhino cannot be accurate. They are at a different level. Give Rhino or StudioTools a serious try and see it for yourself.

I am not very sure why you compare polygon smoothing with NUBRS, again they are just different and I do know the differences clearly.

CATIA is not geared for designer unlike Rhino or StudioTools, CATIA is more for engineers. It is really in a different league.

Perhaps you will find a better home if you try out Rhino or StudioTools. They are both serious freeform surfacing softwares meant for "designers", not engineers.

I am getting the feeling that you're trying to explain to me basics of NURBS and comparing it to polygon, which I find a bit awkward. I know you have been working with CATIA for a very long time. Please try out Rhino or StudioTools and see how they work because they could be the tools you want.